Desert Strike 1338

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TheDude
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PostSubject: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Tue May 24, 2011 1:29 pm

Hey...
I play A LOT of 1338.. like it very much... so first of all thank you very much for designing it.
I discuss very often with people abput the gases at the beginning... some say the 3rd gas only pays of after minute 35... i dont believe that cause when i play a 25 min game and i do 3 gas at the beginning i also have more resis in the breakdown at the end that the 2 gas people from my team... i really would like to calculate it myself... but for that i d liek to have the exact RESIS/SEC... or SECS it takes to get 10 resis... i think without gas it is close to 5.2 seconds fo 10 resis is that correct...?!?!?!?!

anyways.. some facts would be really cool

TheDude
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deminuscolo
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Tue May 24, 2011 10:27 pm

I agree.

Numbers are important to make an effective strat.

I also believe that controlling the mid should grant more income then the actual +15%.

What do you think about implementing two more lines, where the cannons are positioned, that give +5% income?
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TheDude
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Tue May 24, 2011 11:01 pm

yesi thought about this too... but i think 15 is much better balanced than 20... but i agree maybe with a second defensive line between planetary and canon with maybe two canons.... the game is very well balanced in late stage and i gets more exciting... i played 3 or 4 games with more than 1 hr and its just amazing...

another defense line with say 2 canons for maybe 150min each would bring the game into late stages more often... i played 100+.. games and like i said 3 or 4 cane to this unbelieveably exciting late stage....

can one of the programmers give us numbers for income rate... would be really cool thx

TheDude
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itsBence
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Wed May 25, 2011 12:44 am

Hello folks!


1. How the income works
2. When is it worth it to buy a gas?
3. Examples


1.) Now let me explain the income method in the current verison of the game as i see it.
I will exclude the +15% income for passin through the mid line and I'll only discuss the gas thing.

Everyman is startin the game with 250 Mineral(=$ from now) and with an income of 100 $ for every 25 seconds.
("Seconds" means in-game seconds, not real-time seconds.)
Now then if you buy a gas geyser, u will get a +10% raise to the current income.
Here is a "chart" for the income rates with the number of gases:

0 Gas = 100 $ / 25 sec
1 Gas = 110 $ / 25 sec - 25 sec idle
2 Gas = 121 $ / 25 sec - 50 sec idle
3 Gas = 133 $ / 25 sec - 75 sec idle
4 Gas = 146 $ / 25 sec - 100 sec idle
5 Gas = 160 $ / 25 sec - 125 sec idle
6 Gas = 176 $ / 25 sec - 150 sec idle


2.) Well let's see how it is worth it to buy a gas or not:
Notice that if u buy the 1st gas you wont get income for 25 seconds. With the 2nd gas you'll get a 50 seconds outage, and so on.
So if you buy a gas geyser it will only pay off if the game will take 10x"idle seconds" long from the time when you buy the gas.


3.) Here is an example for a theoretical situation with 2 players:
The 1st Player buys one gas at the start and the 2nd Player isnt.
Lets compare they income:

-1st Player opens with a gas, so he gets nothin for 25 seconds, but after that his income is 110 $ / 25 sec.

-2nd Player opens with no gas, so he gets the constant 100 $ / 25 sec income all the game.

If the game takes (10x25=) 250 seconds, their overall income will be the same.

1st Player's overall: 110 x 9 = 990 $ ~ 1000 $
2nd Player's overall: 100 $ x 10 = 1000 $

Conclusion: If the game is shorter than 250 seconds the 2nd Player come on top, but if it is longer than 250 seconds, then the 1st Player's overall income is better.


For example buyin the 6th gas is only worth it if the game takes 1500 seconds (25 mins!) more from the time when you buy the 6th gas.


Sorry for mine bad england and spellin, I hope u can understand what i wanted to mean!

Bence








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Sylon
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Wed May 25, 2011 3:30 am

Hi fokes, nice calculation Bence, but i need to correct some things.

The 100$/25sec(gamesec.) is correct
But while gyser income is only from starting income, Mid is overall:
That means the income caculation is (100 + (10/100 x number of gysers)) x 115/100(mid income)

And that leads to these stats:
Per 25 Seconds:
0 Gas = 100$ , +mid = 115$
1 Gas = 110$ , +mid = 127$
2 Gas = 120$ , +mid = 138$
3 Gas = 130$ , +mid = 150$
4 Gas = 140$ , +mid = 161$
5 Gas = 150$ , +mid = 173$
6 Gas = 160$ , +mid = 184$

Also i must admit that incomefreeze is made with realtime, i think ill change it to gametime.
If u dont think that this mathematical formula isnt fair, i'am always open for chaging suggestions.
(one option could be to decreas the time of the income freeze but increasing the cost of every further gyser)

The suggestions about adding 2 more lines + cannons I'll think about, ill set them to the future change suggestions.

Thx for helping developing the game x) Sylon
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itsBence
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Wed May 25, 2011 4:38 am

Thanks for the correction Sylon!
The truth is that i didnt make a perfect attempt. Only tested with 2 gas, and I counted 121 $. What a silly solution.
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deminuscolo
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Wed May 25, 2011 5:33 am

Quote :
Thanks for the correction Sylon!
The truth is that i didnt make a perfect attempt. Only tested with 2 gas, and I counted 121 $. What a silly solution.

You just didn't know and, actually, could not know ^^.

I was also sure that the +10% income was relative and not absolute.

0 raf --- > 100
1 raf --- > 100 + (10% of 100) = 110
2 raf --- > 110 + (10% of 110) = 121

and so on.

This is why forums are always useful for us nerds ^^.

I really believe that you should change the "incomefreeze" to gametime. But only if also the income sys is based on gametime. If not, change both of them.

To have different play times is just bad for us nerds who want to be precise with our little calculations ^^. LOL.

Reguarding the income formula...... I like it but I really am looking for the add of 2 more control lines.
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TheDude
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Wed May 25, 2011 6:22 am

thx for ur answers.... it s cool to finally have numbers floating around my head while playing....

i made a lil graph and came round to afew numbers.

these things are calculated with perfect timing, no room to spare so real time will be off a few secs and with the setting (the way i think it should be) that 100 resis per 25 secs and 25 secs freeze time run of the same timescale... gametime...

anyways look at the graph for more info and to follow me:
All numbers are very close estimates... so +- 5 secs (close enough thou i would think)
1gas captures 0gas after 8mins 45secs
2gas captures 0gas after 11mins 40 secs
3gas captures 0gas after 15 mins
2gas captures 1gas after 14 mins 30 secs
3gas captures 1gas after 18 mins 13 secs
3gas captures 2gas after 21 mins 58 secs

that means if u go for 3 gas after ~22 mins ull be ahead $wise... not counting any midboni or tower destroy cause that is kinda hard to forsee...;-)



https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/16/51/72/85/1338gr11.jpg

4,5,6 gas i have never built but would not be very hard to figure out of course....

maybe it helps...

TheDude

PS.: maybe not only more tower lines but also different percentages for mid line.... lets say there are 3 lines... if the enemy holds ur line he gets 15... if he holds the middle only 10 maybe... or whichever numbers fit ur balance
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Wed May 25, 2011 8:47 am

Quote :
To have different play times is just bad for us nerds who want to be precise with our little calculations

1 real-time sec is equals 1.38 in-game sec, if you are playin on Faster.

Then 25 real-time seconds (which is the "1 desert-time unit" Smile ) equals 34,5 ~ 35 in-game seconds.

Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Speed
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TheDude
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Wed May 25, 2011 3:35 pm

i have only played games on faster so far.. i think they only "spawn" this way except if u create them.... but i believe maybe 99% of 1338 is palyed on faster

TheDude
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Arkless
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Sat May 28, 2011 11:58 pm

hey, sorry for the late reply

The income timer and the freeze timer are one and the same. The only problem is that your new income (and the remaining freezetime) is calculated every 0.2 seconds.
The game is based on ticks (16 ticks per second for the trigger editor) and you can only compute new things every 0.0625.

Following that, the event does not activate every 0.2, but rather every 0.25 and just skipps 0.05 seconds on every interval.
I made a basic formula where you just input the time, minerals etc. for easy testing wich does not compute the difference between the real time and the ticks. In a future update that will be fixed.

cya, thx for playing and hf Wink

edit:
Just in case someone who creates maps himself wants more info on the tick system of starcraft 2. PM me and I will create a tutorium subforum where I will add a thread that explains everything.
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PostSubject: Re: 1 gas 2 gas 3 gas   Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:19 am

Hey im back again!


I was practicing for my programming exam, so I wrote a console application for Desert Strike Geeks.

-It calculates the income for 0-3 gases with a predefined number of minutes.
-It uses the new 20 sec freezetime multiplier.
-Unfortunately it cant handle gases with different building time yet, so if u see "3 gases" you should think of 3 gases bought at the very first second of the game. But it will give you fairly significant values.
-With the help of it u can easily compare the effectiveness of several builds.
-One more thing: I figured out that my games are 19 mins long on the average. You can make your own measurements or use my 19 mins to get notable values.

Here it is: zippyshare.com/v/41658707/file.html



Okay, one more thing for those whose dont like to use their own brain:

If you try the program with the suggested 19 mins you'll get these lines:

0 gas: 4810
1 gas: 5090
2 gas: 5290
3 gas: 5320

This doesnt mean that 3 gas is the best! No way! These values are nearly equal, but if u start with 3 gases u have no income for about 150 secs! And holding the line is important! And if u only buy 1 at the start and delay the 2nd and the 3rd gas it will be worse!
So the main edification of this article is Never buy 3 gases! Not to mention the 4th 5th and 6th gases.
The 3rd gas is only a noob-test. If u buy it early u'll get overbuilded easily and lose.



And this one is for the developers:

So I dont know what do you think about it, but in my opinion the 3rd, but mosly the 4th, 5th and 6th geysers are useless.
You should change the income system a bit. I dont know how, its a very hard thing.

Maybe you should increase the boost percents for the second and third geysers.
Like +10% for 1st, +15% for 2nd, and +20% for the 3rd gas. Recalibrating the freezetimes should be a good solution too.

And you can also tell me if you want me to help to work out a better balanced income system!



itsBence



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PostSubject: i was wondering as well and tried calculating it, these are my results   Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:08 am

[/url]

seems that at 5:15 when you take your 3 geysers asap, you will be 363 minerals behind, which seems quite significant. If that causes you to lose the middle, you will not be able to keep up in income and fall behind.

but things also depend on the situation, if things are looking good and I seem to outsmart them with units i would still rather take a quick third and go for a longer eco game....

if you disregard the middle bonus, the third geyser will be benificial from 17:45 on,
so in an average 22 minute game you will be better off, again, disregarding the middle bonus........

and by the way: if i'm right in these calculations the 4th will only be benificial if game lasts longer then 38 minutes!!
so that is not very often
[/url]


Last edited by rormc on Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : the images didnt work)
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