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 Balance and Overlapping issue

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Sloth



Posts : 3
Join date : 2012-09-17

PostSubject: Balance and Overlapping issue   Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:06 pm

Hello to everyone, I play on EU server so if what i am saying is not up to date with the current version of the game you know why Razz

OVERLAPPING

I Really like this map is fun, quick, but it is not brainless, it requires good decision making, it is challenging, until you pass the 25 min mark, usually after that it is a battle of " who overlap better" , there are combination that is invicible, so you cross your finger and hope the planetary do its thing, is not fun, you feel like you waste 20 min to loose to a bug.

This phenomenom happens early sometimes due to balance issue imo ( queen -.- ).

I suggest two things :

+ set the units timer to 90 sec so unit dies exactly when new wave spawns
+ add for each player the ability to launch ONE nuclear missle who can wipe out all unit in the target area

BALANCE :

Protoss :

In the early stage of the game they really miss force field, you have to go T2 to stop mass T1 terran, or Zerg, sentry like they are are useless, they need a buff, i think u can extend their range to 7 and make Guariand shield affect melee attacks too.

Allucination is useless and bugged unit attack allucination also if they are detected it should be removed.

Terran :

I feel like they are pretty balanced Smile

Zerg :

Lurker- queen is a very, very, VERY abused strat in EU, it is too strong makes terran bio useless and force Toss to overreact due to the fact that Lurker queen composition 8/10 overlap with the upcoming wave making them unstopable unless mass immo HT or Colossi.

Lurker should go to T3, it is basically like a colossus but is not counterable cause it hides under unit -.- , unless siege tank ( T3 ) or colossi ( T3)

Queen healing should be a T2 skill to research, or it spawns with no energy =)

Infestor cost should be lowered to 250, zerg need them to stop mass bio and dealing with immortal .

That's all Razz
bye Very Happy

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Zee
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Posts : 145
Join date : 2011-05-29

PostSubject: Re: Balance and Overlapping issue   Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:51 am

Overlapping (I also call it Stacking or Balling) occurs because of the imbalance in combat. If one guy is failing to kill his wave, his wave will get added to the next. Normally if 3 skilled people fight 3 skilled people Stacking almost never happens and the one who controls middle more/has better endgame combination wins.

Stacking also happens at PFs because of some long ranged units being protected by PF drawing fire from them. Main offenders are Carriers, Colossi, Broodlords, Ravens and Tanks to some degree - out of these Carriers are way too expensive to get any decent amount and easy to hardcounter, Ravens are mostly ineffectual versus anything above 100 HP, Tanks are too shitty to contribute much, so BLs and Colossi remain as real offenders.

Zerg is probably the main offender in Stacking. Speedzergs can stack easily and creep helps stacking even more. The only thing why this is not broken is because speedzerg is easy to hardcounter (Lukrers stop them dead, as do Archons + Rangedball or Immortals in case of speedroaches. Terran can stop anything with critical mass marines). Broodlords are probably the most useful unit in the game, since it creates infinite units for no energy or any resource, and Stacks like crazy, sometimes even in mid-field.

A nuke would be a quite welcome addition, as stacks are 100% luck based and losing to it while knowing your late game comp is much better is annoying. IMO nukes should wipe ALL units on the map to prevent it from actually creating a stack.

Protoss:
- Their problem early on is cost efficiency. Roaches or any Terran T1 can screw them over big time due to cost efficiency issues
- Their other problem is that this cost efficiency flips to the opposite side towards the late game. Hallucinations, Colossi, Immortals and Scouts (if AA is needed) are insanely cost effective.

Terran:
- They are fairly strong in the early game, only shortly falling behind Zerg.
- They are incredibly weak in the late game. Mech is all but useless vs Toss (and it is also pretty low on efficiency vs all races), so BC is the only option which has its hardcounters.

Zerg:
- They are overall stronger than the other races. Infestor hardcounters Terran and Broodlord hardcounters Protoss.
- Icing on the cake is their very potent Roach based early game, and the cheesy Queen/Lurker.

About Queen/Lurker:
- I noticed Lurkers' area of effect has been reduced, so it no longer massacres infantry. Mass marine should beat it now. It never was a problem vs toss, as once they reach T2 Archon/Immortal mercilessly massacres it.
- IMO the only problem is early detection. Once you notice an early Lurker you have to wait til 1: your money gets up to 250, 2: wait 45 sec for T2 to research, 3: get a detector for 125 money, 4: Use scans anyway because Queens/Corruptors snipe your detection. 5: buy fodder air units to protect your detectors.
Even Terran is screwed in 1v1, since Scan is on a long cooldown, making it impossible to scan all lurker waves.

IMO the solution to this:
- Make scans not require any unit.
- Remove scan cooldown. The money cost of the scan is punishment enough (For example I NEVER use it for scouting unless i'm far ahead - it's easier to just guess what units they'll throw at you).

Also, Queens need a lower energy regeneration, because even if they get EMP/Feedback they STILL put off quite a few heals.
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Sloth



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PostSubject: Re: Balance and Overlapping issue   Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:03 am

let's call it stacking btw.

The protoss " cost inefficency" in early game is a known fact in the real game, so it reflects in DS, the problem is that in real game you have Micro that helps a lot, in this map there is no micro, unit just go straight foward, u need to fill the gap with something, my suggestion for sentry was an idea, reducing Stalker cost is an other idea, they point is they need something that replace the role of forcefield, terran bio and lings are too cost efficent angaist toss.

In a 1v1 if 2 skilled player go against, toss can never win, in they case he will either the opponent is an other toss or a non skilled player. T1 disadvantage is so strong that you can never control middle, and when u finally reach t3 income gap is too big that colossus cost efficency is not enough.

I can proove it, i challenge anyone who wants witness about it =)

Stacking happens due to imbalance in game, is not a question of skil, sometimes DPS is not enough to kill all the wave's unit, Queen are the major cause of this problem, but it happens with other compositions too, mass hellion tank, mass immortal and so on, nuke is needed and i agree with you on the fact that it has to kill all the unit, maybe i did not specify this fact in the thread.

I dont't think Terran suffer so much in the late game, just the composition they need is a little more complex, ( and they can't stick with bio too much Razz) it require basically all the unit =), maybe making cheaper upgrade is the aswer.

I do not agree with you on detection, problem is not detection, the problem is Lurkers, they can be made too quickly, if u are the 3rd to spawn u can make one Lurker on the 1st wave, is too early since, as you said, having detection is not enough u have to make an army to kill all unit that are above him and to protect detectors, u can't find all this money in the fisrt wave -.-. it should be t3 imo .

Making detection a free skill also makes dt and banshee useless, making zerg far more strong than they are .

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Zee
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PostSubject: Re: Balance and Overlapping issue   Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:48 pm

Sloth wrote:

In a 1v1 if 2 skilled player go against, toss can never win, in they case he will either the opponent is an other toss or a non skilled player. T1 disadvantage is so strong that you can never control middle, and when u finally reach t3 income gap is too big that colossus cost efficency is not enough.

Agreed. I've never seen a toss do especially well in 1v1. Though in 3v3 they can be helped early, so their very strong T3 will kick in later. My theory is that the best 3v3 team is either PZT or PZZ. Toss is also surprisingly good at halting stacks (probably due to the extreme power of the Colossus).

Sloth wrote:

Making detection a free skill also makes dt and banshee useless, making zerg far more strong than they are .

They are already pretty useless (cost efficiency issue - never buy more than 1-2 of those). IMO forcing the enemy to spend 20-30 mineral per wave or tech is punishment enough for not having detection.

My other idea for Lurker is to make them exactly like in BW (that is 200 -> 150 HP, 7 range -> 6 range, 18 -> 20 damage), and maybe a T3 range upgrade. IMO the attack area is currently small enough not to be a huge problem vs anything but speedzerg (which I consider dead and buried anyway).
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Sloth



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PostSubject: Re: Balance and Overlapping issue   Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:00 am

Just to understand, but map developers read this forum ? cause it seems to me that is not so populated and on the arcade people start making their own mods of DS due to this un-listened issue.

btw lurker t3 no other solution! I've seen things, there are so many exploit with lurker-stacking that players have started to do build that work on this imbalance.

Mass thor-lurkers : unstopable , ( expecially if mixed with viking/ infestor) is so cost efficent that is convenient to straight tech to it and wait for the planetary to stack waves and then GG.
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Zee
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PostSubject: Re: Balance and Overlapping issue   Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:41 am

I don't know. Forum has been quite dead because of the lack of dev activity. I'm one of the ghosts here who come to haunt every now and then.

I start to agree on putting Lurker to T3. I thought it was possible to balance it on T2, but nope, it hardcounters everything Terran or Zerg at that point. The range + stealth + AOE is just too much.

I also came to realize what causes the Zerg to stack that bloody much: the Queen. That is why late-game Broodlords are so unstoppable, even if you get proper AA, they get healed back to full health, and stay around for the next wave to apporach. I noticed that Queen heal is on a flimsy 5 sec cooldown and the Queen has a VERY fast energy regeneration. This means constant healing, Queen number steadily increasing and at one point just becoming impossible to push through before the next wave arrives.
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