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Ino



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PostSubject: Mass battlecruiser   Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:46 am

Massing up 3/3 battlecruisers is overpowered as hell, the amount of yamato cannons a fleet of battlecruisers 15 mins or more into the game can cast is just ridiculous. Anti-air is just not strong enough. I know forum rules disallow discussion, but I will GLADLY explain further if anyone has any questions regarding them, or suggestions.

//Ino

EDIT: can this be moved to the terran section of the forum?
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Fumbel
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:39 am

Ino wrote:
Massing up 3/3 battlecruisers is overpowered as hell, the amount of yamato cannons a fleet of battlecruisers 15 mins or more into the game can cast is just ridiculous. Anti-air is just not strong enough. I know forum rules disallow discussion, but I will GLADLY explain further if anyone has any questions regarding them, or suggestions.

//Ino

EDIT: can this be moved to the terran section of the forum?

really ?

I only came to this forum in ordrer to ask wtf there are going on with mass BC's,

I as zerg cant win no matter what I build, even with 3v3, and I spam mass corrupters and my other team provide help aswell no chance of winning.

Just lost a game, had all my space filled with corrupters, my other teammate had some hard ground(we totally owned the ground), and the last built a mix of void ray's/phoenix and ground.

Still lost, the ability BC's have are to op'ed cuz its aoe.

Oh well cant wait if they are released a new version.
Cuz this sicks pig
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zuPloed
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:37 am

Well if u have problems with mass bc,
mb u can post a replay?

in general:
the usual bc masser goes 3 geysirs as fast as possible + bc only
if this happens, u should have raped their cannon for long
and have had middlecontrol all game

at minute 12:
if ur t2 u should have a huge eco lead on 2 geysirs
and there should be no problem countering the bc:
zerg: corrupter hydra mix

protoss: stalker, eventually voidrays
a few high templars do good too

terran: vikings, mb some ghosts with emp

if u have a problem with bc rush,
its most likely mixed with another flaw in ur gameplan
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:38 pm

zuPloed wrote:
Well if u have problems with mass bc,
mb u can post a replay?

in general:
the usual bc masser goes 3 geysirs as fast as possible + bc only
if this happens, u should have raped their cannon for long
and have had middlecontrol all game

at minute 12:
if ur t2 u should have a huge eco lead on 2 geysirs
and there should be no problem countering the bc:
zerg: corrupter hydra mix

protoss: stalker, eventually voidrays
a few high templars do good too

terran: vikings, mb some ghosts with emp

if u have a problem with bc rush,
its most likely mixed with another flaw in ur gameplan

Uhm how do I link a gameplay ? :p

the ones I played against usally do mass marine + 1 viking in ordrer to to upgrade 3/3 in everything for air.
Though Im building banelings it aint enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:31 am

zuPloed wrote:
Well if u have problems with mass bc,
mb u can post a replay?

in general:
the usual bc masser goes 3 geysirs as fast as possible + bc only
if this happens, u should have raped their cannon for long
and have had middlecontrol all game

at minute 12:
if ur t2 u should have a huge eco lead on 2 geysirs
and there should be no problem countering the bc:
zerg: corrupter hydra mix

protoss: stalker, eventually voidrays
a few high templars do good too

terran: vikings, mb some ghosts with emp

if u have a problem with bc rush,
its most likely mixed with another flaw in ur gameplan

it not such a huge eco lead at t2 if the units you made are pretty useless against the bcs

zerg - corrupter + hydra works for some minutes but than loses too ( half of the corrupters die at the engagement phase and hydras will have to find a good position first)

protoss - stalker - pretty useless, can hold bcs for some minutes but than they die instantly before the remaining army arives
templars are useless too, they are nearly worth 1 void and just deal a little dmg - no need to negate the yamato cannon since voids dont get attacked by it and voids are only temporary solution, if he gets 2-3 thors voids get useless and carriers are no good choice too becouse they lose nearly all hp in engagment phase = die easily if enemy gets some vikings

terran: vikings, dont work against bcs, already tried, even with eco lead, they overkill too much and die to fast, ghosts useless too because bcs dont yamato cannon the vikings
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:32 am

Quote :
Uhm how do I link a gameplay ? :p
if u meant replay, use some free website for file uploads.
the replays are usually located in "my files" somewhere

if u meant gameplan:
how do u play, when do u get geysirs, what counters do u use, if u think they go mass bc
do u use the ability pannel on the left side?

try infestors (2-4 is enough) with fungalgrowth, this slaughter marineswith some hydras
---
Quote :
it not such a huge eco lead at t2 if the units you made are pretty useless against the bcs
in a situation like fumbel described the enemy invested
(which u didnt as u where smart getting middlecontrol+2geysirs in that time):
450(T3)+(~1000)(3rd geysirs)+2*(175+200+250)(3/3 air (not sure about those numbers)) (+300 yamato and energy?)
here i ignore the advantage of him getting raffineries asap because middlecontrol is more then equal to this
so he has n battlecruisers (525 each),
considering ur ground army is costefficient to his u have 2700+525n spare minerals for ur counter...

another math:
bc:525 corrupter:180 -> u almost get 3 corrupters for each bc

now lategame:
minute 25+ is a completely different story and usually has a way more complex armycomposition...

as aentioned aboth:
theres a general conceptual problem with taking geysirs asap,
having midcontrol is way more preferrable: 2geysir+mid is about as strong as 3 geysirs without,
that alone is an advantage of 1000 minerals at the same income
thats a full set of upgrades/a bunch of marines/4 immortals/t3+one heavy flyer/whatever u like
and that is much at 10 minutes ingame
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:14 am

I always get angry when a mate uses a mass-bc-strategy, as all strategies going for fast late-game units without support of early game units just suck.

Middle worth more than a geysqir and it doesnt cost anything.

zuPloed already mentioned that you get a huge ressource-advantage, just because your opponent wont build anything to fight you at all.

Some may not like this, but if he isnt fighting you, just use the dance-command on zergling/marine/zealot and u will constantly get your free +15% income and imo this dance command is a nice strategic option and not bug abuse, as any opponent could be building units and stop you using it (units wont fight anymore, once they've danced)

As Zerg I honestly dont build Corrupters at all..only if it goes to very lategame sometimes.
A good amoount of hydras and an army of infestors is find to counter them at least until they have like 7-8 bcs...dunno how it is then, but so far all my bc-playing opponents died before they had 10+ bcs

As Terran it worked fine for me to spam marines and then go for mass bcs yourself.

This will result because of the mineral advantage you have in you having like 30-40 marines and 2 bcs less than your opponent...you will easily win this all game long. Important is to fully upgrade your marines, not to build medivas (do not build them at all on this map tbh) and do not upgrade your battlecruisers weapons/armor until you have like 5-6...yamato and getting some bcs out is more important.
By the way thats another thing a normal bc-first-guy does which makes his "strategy" even worse. He has 2-3 battlecruiser upgraded to 3-3...im pretty sure getting out 6-7 bc and going then for upgrades is much better.

As Protoss Mass Stalkers on the ground and some void rays do well...only get some ground attack upgrades and dont tech to t3 at all...you wont need it and can save those ressources. (I often reach t3 as toos at 17-18 minutes^^ Only exception is if i need some collosei against opponents who know how to play
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:41 am

3 corrupter per bc = 2 corrupter per bc arent enough, works until enemy gets more bcs - to much overkill and you run out of space pretty soon


ofc every of youre "tactics" work for some minutes but than he has enough bcs and he kills everything you build
you can try to kill him before but thats only possible if he has bad allies

its just not possible to counter this atm. but it will change with new units later
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TohoBuWaha
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:01 am

Wrong, only way for him not to be killed is if you have bad allies.


If he goes for this bc-strategy you will definately get map control and thus more income. This will result in your allies also getting more income and this will make them also getting stronger than their opponents and this will result in total map control for your team after 4-5 minutes...that means if it goes really bad for you 10 minutes +15% income for your whole time and that should definetely be enough to win the game.

btw i doubt that an army of 10-15 bcs is as unbeatable as you say...
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:28 am

tired, of the
"no ur wrong because ur wrong" argument (without even a slight proof!)

we can duke this out tomorrow, darkness
->zuploed:520
->1on1
->and then we upload replays and have a hard base,
on what to diskuss...
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:16 am

I'm 100% sure he will say this strategy only "works" in 3v3 and imo even that shows how bad it is^^
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:18 am

TohoBuWaha wrote:
I'm 100% sure he will say this strategy only "works" in 3v3 and imo even that shows how bad it is^^

ofcourse this only works in 3 vs 3 how can you think that it would work good in 1 vs 1 ?
in 3 vs 3 you get a push from youre 2 allies and fall back again at youre turn - alone you would get nothing

its pretty impossible to win against it - if you get air to beat the ground - bcs own you - if you get air to beat the bcs - ground owns you - if you get ground you will own for some time but get killed by bcs soon


you just cant say a 1 vs 1 is the same like 3 vs 3
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:36 am

3vs3 fine aswell
get urself a team together, so u cant blame ur "bad" mates

Toho, wanna join my team?^^
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:35 am

@ Darkness: you say your teammates push my team back and this is where the "strategy" fails...it relays on your mates being better than mine.

@ Ploed: sure Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:18 am

TohoBuWaha wrote:
@ Darkness: you say your teammates push my team back and this is where the "strategy" fails...it relays on your mates being better than mine.

@ Ploed: sure Very Happy

they push you back, a little, you have to keep in mind, they gonna have pf/cannon support and the army is a big ball instead of 2-3 armys arriving at different times (with tosh for example)

if the mates dont push you back enough you got anti ground and bcs will own you

in general its always like that unless the game ends before 12 minute mark

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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:45 am

with a smaller army they wont push back more than to the middle and there we still get our bonus income...unless they're better than the other team of course

Just get 2 mates and lets play a game were your team has 1 guy (or as many as you want) going for fast bc...
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:52 am

last post from me on this topic
(and a pathetic one at that):

@darkness
u are arguing against 2 guys,
one of them giving detailed description of what will happen,
were only missing facts here,
unless u bring some ur credibility goes with zero right now.

make facts today, i will be online, from like 8 pm.

'regards Ploed.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:35 am

zuPloed wrote:

@darkness
u are arguing against 2 guys,
one of them giving detailed description of what will happen,
were only missing facts here,
unless u bring some ur credibility goes with zero right now.

make facts today, i will be online, from like 8 pm.

'regards Ploed.

i dont see youre char code
i dont have friends who play desert strike (never played or dont want to play)
i dont want to waste time just for some facts for a map which will change in some weeks to a completly new map, making everything we discuss here absolutly useless

i just say my experience from 300+ desert strike games
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:29 am

The problem with bc's is that they look so powerfull if you play against a bad player (and there's a lot of them at this map), but in fact you will just never see a good player using that strat and you will never see a good player losing against this strat, except he has 2 bad mates.

I think we both already said why this strategy is bad and im pretty sure on the new version people will still be using this strat, so dont say this discussion is useless.

If your experience after 300+ games is that battlecruiser only is a good (you say even overpowered) strategy, then you definitely drew the wrong conclusions of those games.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:50 am

TohoBuWaha wrote:
The problem with bc's is that they look so powerfull if you play against a bad player (and there's a lot of them at this map), but in fact you will just never see a good player using that strat and you will never see a good player losing against this strat, except he has 2 bad mates.

I think we both already said why this strategy is bad and im pretty sure on the new version people will still be using this strat, so dont say this discussion is useless.

If your experience after 300+ games is that battlecruiser only is a good (you say even overpowered) strategy, then you definitely drew the wrong conclusions of those games.

new counters to the bc - bc could even get up

well maybe i had bad allies but i already tried all the tactics atleast 2 times and lost everytime with only my army against only his army
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:57 am

The main reason why this strategy is bad is not the battlecruisers you build, it is the huge economic disadvantage you have by letting your opponents get the middle and therefore it is very important not to have bad allies and give the other time the chance of getting the middle even if one of them (bc-guy) isnt building units yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:49 am

BC only works late game. It is a huge investment to start with it. Tech rushing to BC is suicidal strategy versus anyone half-competent. It can only work if your allies outmatch the enemy by far.

Either you need to rush on the tech side and will be low on economy, or do both, but by then your enemy will have amassed a large force and has substantial middle control time or maybe even a cannon kill, putting you behind.

BCs start to be good once the ground becomes too crowded, or your are pushing the enemy anyway. Yamato cannons do insane damage (pretty much fucks zerg AA - unless infestors are used), and the units themselves last very long. With infantry support they shine. Without it, however, they go down easy.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:34 am

100% agree with everythin Zee wrote
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:14 am

Zee wrote:
BC only works late game. It is a huge investment to start with it. Tech rushing to BC is suicidal strategy versus anyone half-competent. It can only work if your allies outmatch the enemy by far.

Either you need to rush on the tech side and will be low on economy, or do both, but by then your enemy will have amassed a large force and has substantial middle control time or maybe even a cannon kill, putting you behind.

BCs start to be good once the ground becomes too crowded, or your are pushing the enemy anyway. Yamato cannons do insane damage (pretty much fucks zerg AA - unless infestors are used), and the units themselves last very long. With infantry support they shine. Without it, however, they go down easy.

This.

Stupid development is not doing shit.

I have been playing for quite some time now, and still mass bc late game works.

This is how they do it.

1)Build ton of marines (only way to counter it is imo infestor's or banelings)
2) Get help from Teammate's
3) Start selling 2-3 marine bunkers (late game) to get a bc up while ur 4-5 refineries shove money into you.

4)Win.

I just had a game, had 25 corrupters, and still lost. They came out and wupti boom dead cuz of yamato shit totally insane. And I even had 6 infestor's up, which wasnt even getting close to use parasite thing.

Also my teammates was building vikings which was getting ripped to shit of the cannon to. Becuase corrupters and vikings Clouster together in a small area, making bc's cannon go boom.

Fix this. So tired of it already..
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PostSubject: Re: Mass battlecruiser   Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:15 am

Fumbel wrote:
1)Build ton of marines (only way to counter it is imo infestor's or banelings)
Roach+Hydra works too, its not a hard counter, but it works. I prefer that over banelings as banelings just suck lategame (a lot of zerg will maybe disagree, but i prefer a strong lategame over early game baneling-busts)

Fumbel wrote:
2) Get help from Teammate's
?!? If a mate is able to help out its always helpfull for every strategy lol

Fumbel wrote:
3) Start selling 2-3 marine bunkers (late game) to get a bc up while ur 4-5 refineries shove money into you.
Now I understand...after 40+ minutes mass bc is really imbalanced... Rolling Eyes
Ref 4+5 take so insanely long until they make up their price that I absolutely never build them.

Fumbel wrote:
I just had a game, had 25 corrupters, and still lost. They came out and wupti boom dead cuz of yamato shit totally insane. And I even had 6 infestor's up, which wasnt even getting close to use parasite thing.
I never was that far in lategame (I played more than 50, probably ~100 games), but I'm very sure like 20 infestors and some hydras are much better here.

Fumbel wrote:
Also my teammates was building vikings which was getting ripped to shit of the cannon to. Becuase corrupters and vikings Clouster together in a small area, making bc's cannon go boom.
Imo vikings suck anyway on this map...too expensive, terran better uses bc's/marines/raven/thor (splash) to fight bcs.

Btw last games i tried to have a look at yamato canons and I doubt that they really do splash damage. Plz correct me if Im wrong
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