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 Balance of the game

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Zee
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Join date : 2011-05-29

PostSubject: Re: Balance of the game   Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:09 am

Nice analysis, a lot of points matches mine.

http://desert-strike-1338.forumieren.com/t173-zee-s-complete-game-analysis

Here are the points I do not agree with:

- Siege Tanks: IMO they are quite underpowered. Terrans have better options for infantry killing (Ravens, Ghosts), Zerg Ultralisks, Broodlord, speed Zerglings make them more of a liability than an asset, and Chargelots, Archons and Immortals make them practically useless. An expensive unit and even needs setup time, for such a low impact on battle.

- Overlords: I don't think these can be reasonably balanced. My first idea was also to widen the area, but with more analysis I just found these to be absolutely broken. First off, creep is not owned by any player, making it affect multiple waves, or even enemies (I really lol when I see enemies use creep that my zerg ground takes advantage of - but I rage hard when I'm terran and my stupid ally's creep speeds up banes towards my bio). This can either aid an other zerg player (speedzerg), or screw him up if he is planning on using a Broodlord+ground combo (typical slow zerg, IMO the most effective strategy). 1 terran + 2 speedzerg with overlords will make for quite a skewed wave pattern, with a long pause for the terran and zergs stacking up on him all the time. Not to mention a lot of units have different speeds on creep. Hydras and Queens gain a ton of speed, while Lurkers and Infestors barely gain any. Insufficient Overlord line basically splits your army in two if it relies on OLs to maintain speed.
The only solution IMO is removal of this unit.

- Infestor: I agree with ITs being too mana costly, but otherwise Infestors are currently pretty overpowered. T can say goodbye to infantry, and T mech is just weak. P and Z can say goodbye to melee units (exc. Ultralisks).

- Broodlord: if you have ever played PvZ it is anything but fine. 4+ Broodlords basically perma-halt the protoss army, making it helpless. 6+ Broodlords can do this to a Terran army. Currently the only way to win vs them is to freaking rush them down and kill them before the numbers get too high. AA only units do not really help, as they are very easy to counter. Queen-Broodlord-Corruptor-Infestor is practically unbeatable.

- Zealots: they already dominate PvP too hard (only PvP counter is 4+ Archons, covered with at least a few zealots), and are actually quite good when massed. At one point I also thought their cost should be reduced. The only reason they seem weak is because hydralisks and reapers can kill them very fast, but IMO their cost is fine.

- Sentry hallucination is pretty far from useless. Combine them with Carriers and Colossi, and you'll see why. I actually suggested moving it to T3, because it is then when it becomes useful (air units target them despite being detected as hallucination, if nothing else is available in range that shoots air).

- Colossus: again, they are not fine. They are what I usually call Broodlord light. They kill ground too well once massed sufficiently. While there's no easy solution for it (like removing Broodlings as targets) for it, it at least needs a cost increase. Their area of effect attack combined with their long range is nigh-impossible to balance.

- Carrier: keep in mind that they only get 0.5 damage reduction per armor. I also just recently realized (because I rarely used them) they cost more than BCs, which is actually pretty stupid, considering how much better BCs are. They are, however very very effective if critically massed (Broodlord ultra-light version).

Units i'd like to see:

- Goliath (plz plz plz plz)
- Some decent T1 Protoss ranged unit
- SC1 style hydralisks (I really hate the glass cannons they've become in SC2, it is just so Terran-y)
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AbyssLord
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PostSubject: My Suggestions   Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:52 am

Hi there!
My suggestions are:

General:
- Cloaking almost useless in this game, easy to counter, especially with Terran. Maybe anti-air units shall focus fire on detectors first if there are any.
- There shall be upgrades of low-tier units to match up with T3. For example: a Barracks that spawn 2 Marines may be upgraded 2 times, each cost 105 (or each upgrade --> more minerals for space), and spawn additional 2-2 Marine, so a level 3 Barrack may cost about 315 minerals and spawn 6 Marines. (6 supply in normal game for a T3 unit and 6 supply for the 6 T1 unit)
- Starting Refinery may be delayed, preventing new players from "Refinery build racing"...
- There may be 2 resources insted of 1. Vespane and Mineral, halve the resource collection rate, and split them into these 2. More tanking or defensive units like Immortal, Roach or Viking shall cost more Vespane, aggressive units shall cost more Minerals.

Terran:
- Marines are ok.
- Reapers are ok.
- Marauders are ok.
- Ghosts are ok.
- Hellions are almost useless in this game. They deal low amount of DPS compeared to Reaper. (Hellions: 11,5 DPS with special upgrade; 2 Reaper: around 36-38 with a single weapon upgrade) Extend the range of the AoE or add AI control that orders them to retreat from frontline.
- Medivacs are ok.
- Vikings lift off extra fast when there are any aerial opp., but seek for landing zone for a long time, and they are killed by ground units before landing. Maybe a cost decrease to 175.
- Banshees are almost useless becouse the easy cloak-counter. I rarely use them. Simply Marines can counter them. If they were cheaper, or the cloak detection issue solved, i may use them more often, but so...
- Raven's Seeker Missile shall have an auto-cast icon like Templar's Psionic Storm, so people may gain more tactical control over battlefield by not wasting Seeker Missile on 1-2 unit running fast. Point Defense Drone with that amount of energy is useless i think. Countering 2-3 shot from such a huge battle that this map can generate is nothing. Point Defense Drone may have more energy, or remove energy cost and add a cooldown time to laser defense. (about 2 sec)
- Siege Tanks are ok.
- Battlecruiser's Yamato blast allows Terran players to toatlly neutralize all Zerg forces. Zerg can't fight with mass Battlecruiser. The only unit that can beat BC in Zerg army is Corruptor that is primary target for Yamato, but if not targeted Zerg beats BC. As Protoss Void Ray beats Battlecruiser too, but they are not considered as a threat. Don't know what to do with that beast, but with Yamato cannon Terran is currently overpowered against Zerg and nerfed against Protoss with these options.
- Thors may focus more on ground if there are any unit in range. (often saw attacking Corruptors while hit by Roaches...)
- Vulture's Spider Mine splash damages ally troops, this shall be removed. (ally Zealots die fast)
- I miss Firebats from the frontline, they may be added in the Terran army... Smile

Zerg:
- Zerglings are ok.
- Banelings shall target structures again, but focus on units first.
- Roaches should cost 90.
- Queens need more acceleration, they often stay behind troops, while my DPS units are slain.
- Hydras are ok.
- Overlords are tricky units, they mess up formation for players who focus on Hydralisk-Queen-Roach-Broodlord combination with 2.25 speed, but can aid a rush combination of Zergling-Roach-Ultralisk with upgraded speed. They shall generate creep wider range. Also there is a small bug: one of them (over your Photon Cannon) do not generate creep...
- Overseers are ok.
- Mutalisks are raider units, they are useless on this map, they are killed easily, and don't match up the speed with your army. They fly fast forward and are slain down before reinforcemance arrives. Spire shall spawn 2 of them but for increased cost of about 180.
- Corruptors are ok.
- Infestor's Infested Terran energy cost is very high. Have to pay 275 Minerals for a one-time shot Fungual Growth OR Neural Parazite (often controls Marines or low tier units instead of Thors or Colossi) and maybe 2 Infested Terrans (can be killed before they can deal any damage). Also Infestor focuses creating Infested Terrans even if there are a lot of enemies, instead of Fungual Growthing them. Infested Terran spell cries for a 0 energy cost and some cooldown, and Infestor for a slightly lowered energy regen. i think...
- Broodlords are ok.
- Ultralisks are ok.
- Lurkers are ok i think, the only thing i miss is SC1 stats with 20(+2) damage.

Protoss:
- Zealots need cost reduction to 90.
- Sentry's Hallucinations are almost useless. They deal no damage and some player begins to spam mass Sentry with Hallucination. These damage-less decoys simply hold up an entire army, so the next player have to face with 2 army instead of 1. Again a single detector can spot the difference between real and halu units.
- Stalkers are ok.
- Dark Templars are one of the most useless unit in game. Again a single detector, and they never reach the opponent. They shall get Zealot Charge, or reduce cost to around 140.
- Immortals are ok.
- Observers are ok.
- Templars are ok.
- Archons are ok.
- Phoenixes stop when there are any ground unit in front of them. This have to be changed. They never reach Vikings or Broodlords if there is at least 1 ground unit that they can't kill.
- Void Rays are ok.
- Colossi are ok.
- Carriers may cost less. Battlecruisers with Yamato Cannon cost 525, a Carrier without such a might cost 590. I think that's unfair. Interceptors have 2x4 damage against 2 Battlecruiser armor, they can't do even a scratch on it. 2x2=4 damage with 8 Interceptor in every 3 second, around 10-11 DPS. Battlecruiser has 6 damage on 2 armor every 0.225 second, around 18 DPS with a single Yamato with 300 instant damage. I think Carrier may cost 500 Minerals.
- Scout has no weapon upgrades, but as it gets, it will replace Void Ray.

Also there is a bug with Fungual Growth and Gravitron Beam. As effects end and there are no opponent in range, units stand still, no more attackmove, until ordered manually.
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andrew



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PostSubject: Re: Balance of the game   Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:47 pm

whoops sorry i cant read Very Happy
the mass viking response never seems to work for me, i will give the hydra + queen counter a try though
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Tenshi711
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PostSubject: Re: Balance of the game   Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:19 am

I suggested to decrease cost, not an increase on HTs Wink

BCs are really easy to kill with terran and zerg.
In T, you just need bunch of vikings.
In Z, Queens and mass Hydralisk is enough. Add some infestors if you need. If you opponent is BCs only, then research for neural parasite and enjoy.
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andrew



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PostSubject: Re: Balance of the game   Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:13 pm

i agree with pretty much everything you said, although if high templars get an increased cost i d like to see feedback actually be useful with a longer range maybe. BCs also need a serious nerf, terran and zerg have no way to counter them at all
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Tenshi711
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PostSubject: Re: Balance of the game   Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:05 am

Yeah but High templars now just cast only 1 storm and they're quite useless. Even sometimes they don't cast feedback when they have to.
Compared to Infestors, they have same price but 10 times less effective !
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Alex3057



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PostSubject: Re: Balance of the game   Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:03 am

I agree in most of it, except that, I don't see the problem in the current siege tank price?
And the energy upgrade was removed from the High Templars because it was OP and allowed them to cast to many storms in too short time, So I don't think you'll get that one back.
But except these two things, I pretty much agree on all of it! Smile
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Tenshi711
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PostSubject: Balance of the game   Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:06 am

Hi, i'm Tenshi.711, also mapmaker. Sorry for my english, but I made looooot of games on it and there are some balances you have to do (in bold, most important and urgent ones)
Smile

GENERAL
-When turret is destroyed, players should receive 200 only (not 600 if he's alone for exemple). The less players you are, the easier is the game, so they don't have to be helped more if they are already winning.
-The mid line is not working correctly, sometimes some strange behavior happens (I don't talk about the Obs trick)
-Remove all critters, some bugs happen with units
-Do something against /dance bug exploit, like a general message, preventing players that someone is trying to cheat with it
-Add timer for rocks destruction
-Increase time of rocks destruction
- Don't make units spawn on the same point, while Colossi attacks PF, they are all hitted. If an Infestor is here, the entire army is fungaled. That's very very very powerful.

TERRAN
-Scan shouldn't be T1 with marines and that low cost in minerals.
-Reapers 125 -> 170 (or cost 85, but only 1 Reaper, not 2) Actually one of the best T1 unit, it kills everything. You can kill several enemy waves with the same wave of Reapers : Marines, zealots, banelings, marauder, stalkers... whatever. And turret is destroyed really quickly

-Ghosts buildings should be soldable
-Tanks buildings should be soldable
-Medivac 125 -> 100
-Tanks 225 -> 250
-Ghosts 200 -> 225
-Hellions upg 150 -> 100
-Sometimes Banshee's turn off their cloak without any reason, with energy, and die because they are visible.

ZERG
-Roaches 85 -> 95
-Queens T1 -> T2
-Queens 170 -> 200 (or 215), probably the best unit of the game actually because of incredible resistance and transfusion ability
-Broodlings shouldn't attack destructible rocks (or turn rocks indestructible)
-Zergling's spawning pool shouldn't buildable on Vespene Geyser now
-Fungal Growth 150 -> 175 (or 200, 225)
-Neural parasite shouldn't focus fungaled units and little units like marines or marauders.
-Hydralisk 100 -> 110 (or 115)

PROTOSS
-High Templars 275 -> 250 (or 225)
-Add High Templars +25 energy upgrade
-Phoenixes AI is fucked up, Protoss build them in priority to attack air units, but they are stuck on every ground unit, waiting for GravBeam CD, even if they can't cast it on it... even if you disable autocast ! So they don't attack air units unless there nothing else to do... It's actually impossible for a protoss to kill BroodLords with tanking ground units if the only anti-air unit don't attack them.
-Colossus 430 -> 475

I prefered the game without the selling feature, that was more strategic and you'll have to pay more attention on battlefield and other units. But that's only a subjective opinion Wink

I don't see what to do against that, but there is a VERY lame technique : playing normally until your mate is T3. Then sell everything and quit the game to let him earn half of your money and make mass T3 units (like BCs) at the same time with your and his saved money (and armor/atk upg to level 3 easily).
Got the advantage of being 2 players and not 3 + massive extra money.
It can't be beaten without plenty of infestors and neural parasite upg.

Thanks for reading.
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