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 Mass marine is imba

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Zee
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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:02 pm

The only time the zealots will hold anything is the very first wave, because a 4 zealot opening usually defeats the 2(4) reaper 1(2) marine from T. As T if I see this, I usually add one more reaper, and then just marines. I have not seen any zealot based tactics that kill the 3(6) reapers and the X marines I gather the next round, especially since Infantry weapons and armor are a lot cheaper than toss upgrades, so I can upgrade mid-battle to +1. Add stim and Zealots will not stand a ghost of a chance (I usually pass stim until later, as I want my waves to be in a better condition and more cohesive formation for the next wave - but if Zealots would be problem, just research it, and they vaporize).

Zealots also have a very poor synergy with sentries as they are usually too far ahead of them, they die to concentrated reaper/marine fire when the shields arrive, and even then they might be out of it's range as the shield has a 4 range and sentries stop to attack on 5 range.

Archons are something I do recommend vs usual infantry tactics, although marines are the best choice T has vs them, they do soak up a large amount of reaper/marauder fire, and stalker/sentry does fight marines cost effectively (too much marauders -> add more Sentry/Archons; too much marines -> add more Stalkers).

Zealots are actually pretty nice EMP trap, as Ghosts are stupid enough to waste EMP on them. This can be circumvented by keeping the ability tab open, disable EMP, wait for the zealots to die (with marine/reaper combo and ghost snipes it takes around 1-2 seconds, they usually don't attack or attack only once), then enable EMP on the Archons. Usually you don't even have to do this, as a few Ghosts will still have EMP, and Archons by themselves are not enough to break a massed infantry force, unless they are significantly higher in cost-wise numbers.

The other problem with zealot based strategy is that these mass infantry T1 strategies usually convert to Battlecruiser at T3. Your zealots now being useless, and Archons getting Yamato-d you are screwed with any Colossi you might try. What I usually do is that I'm not selling my marines and reapers, and just add BC on top of them. This usually results in two kind of scenarios: either I force colossi, making them wasted money that could have been anti BC defense (and besides my infantry still dishes out reasonable damage before they die), or force scout/VR which is easily shut down by the infantry on the ground.

An other problem on T2 is Ravens. They place down a few turrets, and draw zealot and archon fire and buy your infantry precious time to kill them both. Stalkers only has to kill turrets and then go on killing marines, while zealots have to move back and forth. On top of this, medivacs also stop any damage dealt by zealots, as they heal faster than a zealot can damage, and due to the small size of infantry units zealots usually engage 1 on 1.

The best terran tactic is the marine/reaper into raven/ghost into battlecruiser versus any race (add Marauders as necessary), and I guarantee that this won't even get scratched by zealot/archon.

Anyway back to topic:

how to beat marines:
Toss: 1 zealot(for dance) stalker/sentry into templar/archon/immortal into colossus/scout/vr (careful, this build does not work at all in Protoss vs Protoss, and is easily abused in Protoss vs Zerg early game)

Zerg (ezpz): roach/queen (with 2 pools of dance lings on geysers - they help vs early marauders) into infestor/hydra (skip hydra if an idiot zerg ally decides to use creep)
into broodlord/corruptor (this strategy is the ultimate zerg strategy vs any race, but it NEEDS hydras vs toss at T2, so flame your zerg ally if he uses creep - or quick tech to broodlord and risk a bit of falling back for a later unstoppable push)

Terran: reaper+marine. It beats pure marine AND pure reaper. Marines are really good meat shields (with shield upgrade ofc, no stim preferred), and reapers are the DPS. At T2 reapers are just initial punch and stim marines are the DPS. Ravens and Ghosts completely shut down any more infantry massing. Don't bother with tanks, they suck.

EDIT:
Most importantly do not be greedy with the gas. Too early gases means you'll get overrun. This should be pretty much a no-brainer, but as far as I see it in practice it is not. Only buy gas if you see that the middle can be held steadily.
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luckyo



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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:01 pm

The point behind zealots is not to do damage but to tank damage while archons get in unmolested and fire 3-4 shockwaves before zealots die, as well as to eat EMP. The end result is usually a bunch of ghosts with EMP on CD, a bunch of dead zealots and either a whole lot of dead or borderline dead reapers/marines with archons that have full shields.

It is a bit uncertain to work due to spawn location weirdness, but it usually does work.
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Zee
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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:31 am

I actually don't recommend zealots at all versus T. Yes, mass marine can be beaten by zealot/archon, but if the terran is smart he knows that there are reapers. Reapers alone should be the primary reson why you don't place more than 1 zealot (for dance) in PvT. I've met so many protosses who I slaughtered as T because the continued to spam zealots.

Mass marines are soundly beaten by blinkstalker + sentry. Be sure to activate the sentry shield before the battle (it saves some precious free hits). Stalker based armies are more versatile anyway, so if you happen to get to a different type of enemy you will do fine. At T2 add 2-3 high templars ASAP. They help clear up the meat shields for Marauders, so your stalkers can hit them. If the army is marine only, storm + stim = dead marines. After the templars, just spam Archons.

Reaper + Marauder as of now is not beatable for T1 protoss. Marine + marauder gets killed by zealot+stalker or zealot+sentry, reaper+marine gets beaten by stalker+sentry. The counter to both Marauder and Reaper are the T2 Archon. Quick teching to it is never a good idea, it puts you behind severely, and he can just spam Marines and a few Ghosts to kill Archons.
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luckyo



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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:42 am

Protoss counter: start with zealots, 6-7, back up with one-two sentries to help soak. You should control center at this point unless he's massing reapers. If he is, counter with a few stalkers.

Research tier two.

Spam archons and add a zealot every 3 archons or so. Zealots will tank initial marine attacks and SOAK EMP, leaving archons to decimate marine line in seconds. Continue pushing a new zealot or two alongside archons and get to htemps + storm.

Tier 3 and colossi. You win.



Zealots are a key to this (and generally most) tactic with protoss.



Zerg counter:

Start with a couple of zerglings + roaches. You should win center as zerglings soak initial attacks and swarm low amounts of rines and roaches can tank marines very well at low upgrades.

Get banelings. If you get pushed off center, research roach speed upgrade. Do NOT research baneling/zergling speed upgrades. This results in roaches soaking initial assault and banelings getting in mixed with zerglings slightly later.

If he continues to spam marines in spite of losing center and you start losing roaches before banelings are in, get all speed upgrades and start pushing tier 2 + queens to heal roaches. Else just keep with previous build order.

Spam roaches + queens + banelings at roughly 1:1:1 ratio. Infestors are a costly distraction at this point which you should avoid. You will likely lose center line due to queens being rather weak at this point, as you tech to up to 3. Get a few overlords to ensure that queens can match roaches' speed.

Ultralisks come in with armor upgrades heal spammed by your already sizeable queen spam. You should be able to decimate 2 players worth of marines if they have pushed with this as ultralisks backed by queens are ridiculously overpowered against almost anything ground based but immortals. You win.
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daejk



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PostSubject: One can counter it   Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:43 am

Hi,

I thanks for the response, Sylon. I just wanted to add that while mass marine still wins a lot, I feel that people who know the strategy can counter it.

@TheDarkness: Surprisingly, mass tanks counters mass marine. I would not have expected that Smile

Daejk
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Sylon
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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:53 am

I thought alot about the marien, i think the price is quite balanced in the later stages of the game.
But can get quite imba at the beginning.

I dont know what i will do atm, but ill care about this problem soon Wink
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Tenshi711
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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:58 am

Quote :
Mass marine is imba
Fungal growth.
or Colossus.
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TheDarkness
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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:17 am

toss : acutaly i mean some hts and 3-4 archons to get all marines to low health (the archons tank all emp) and other units (no matter which becouse marines only need 1 more hit to die)
zerg: mass baneling kills nearly any ground units expect archons,immortals,thors,siege tanks(unsieged or presieged),ultras
terran: siege tank (unsieged) actualy kills marines without problems, if all enemies go only mass marines and you go only mass tanks, youre able to kill all 3 waves bye yourself (at around 15 minute mark) and if enemy sells all his ground for air just research siege tech and kill his base, if enemie gets thors get 1-2 bcs and all thors focus the bcs
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daejk



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PostSubject: Zealots, Reapers, Archons/HT don't work   Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:48 am

Hi,

thanks for the replies. We have tested Zealots, Reapers and Archons/HT against Mass Marines. Neither of this tactics seem to work, Archon/HT seems to be the most viable strategy, but a handful of ghosts in the mix work well. Siege tanks are too expensive to get and did not work well either.

I invite you to try these tactics yourself.

Roach Hydra + Banelings is also quite strong, but in the matches I have played it was not strong enough.

I am investigating Banelings as counter, and first results indicate that they might have a chance against mass marines (especially with +3 armor upgrade).

Daejk
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TheDarkness
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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:12 am

mass tanks (unsieged) and vikings win as soon as you get 2 lines of tanks Very Happy
or hts with some archons in front to tank the emp
or hydras + roaches and coruptors
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jmyee
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PostSubject: Re: Mass marine is imba   Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:47 am

Banelings, Reapers, Zealot Cool
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daejk



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PostSubject: Mass marine is imba   Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:56 am

Hi,

first of all thanks for this awesome map, it's really fun to play, and great to see the constant improvements!

I just wanted to point out that there is a cheese tactic that wins nearly 100% of the time (I have tested it for over half a week and never lost).

1. Group up with 2 friends.
2. Everyone only builds marines. (Get stim and upgrades). Never ever build medivacs.
3. Build a few ghosts if you encounter massive fungals or storms.
4. If they are not dead at the 20 Minute mark, you should have enough minerals to complement your build with mass battlecruiser.
5. Win.

I'm sure you guys can come up with a nice fix for this.

Daejk

PS: I want to give credit to Suizidfish for inventing the tactic.
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